Calligraphy Biz Corner

15. Mastering Marketing and Pricing for Live Events with Cat and Alex of Keeping Up with the Calligraphers

• Alane Gianetti, Shaochen Wu • Season 1 • Episode 15

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We're back from summer break and kicking off the fall season with a special collaboration episode featuring Cat and Alex from Keeping Up with the Calligraphers podcast! We're honored to have them on the show to chat about the diverse, in-demand live event calligraphy industry.

Join us for this exciting conversation where Cat Brown of Cat Lauren Calligraphy and Alex Hirsch of Signs of Our Lives share their experiences of growing their calligraphy businesses, niching down within the live event space, and the importance of staying authentic in business. We chat about essential marketing and pricing strategies for live events, the value of community connections, and the necessity of having a contract in place, whether it's your first or your hundredth job. 

From corporate events to private parties, Cat and Alex have a wealth of knowledge when in comes to standing out as live event artists. After getting their start by creating signs and paper goods for weddings, they expanded their services to provide live calligraphy at corporate events and activations for brands like Prada, Makers Mark, LA Magazine, Netflix, and more.

Whether you're looking to partner with luxury and corporate clients, provide on-site activations for local businesses, or even break into the world of flash tattoos, this episode has all the tips you need to create personalized, Insta-worthy experiences for guests of all kinds. Tune in for an insightful conversation packed with actionable tips as we head into busy season for live events!

Please note, if you're listening around littles, you might want to put headphones in for this one!

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alane_1_09-04-2024_131029:

Hello and welcome to Calligraphy Biz Corner. This is our first episode back after our summer break. We actually also are releasing a summer catch up episode today, so be sure to listen to that either before or after this one. But we are super excited to kick off the fall season with a very special collaboration episode. While we focus primarily on wedding calligraphy services, it's No secret that onsite events are a hot topic right now. And it's not just live calligraphy that I've been seeing on my Instagram feed and Pinterest boards. I've been seeing a lot of bottle painting and watercolor portraits. One of our guests today, Alex, she actually even does flash tattoos in front of an audience, which I think is so cool and also so nerve wracking. I can't imagine. Like no room for error there. Right. We're really excited to welcome two live event pros as our guests, Kat and Alex, they are also the hosts of an event calligraphy podcast, which you may know of called keeping up with the calligraphers. So if you like what you hear from them today, then definitely be sure to go give their podcast a follow afterwards.

shaochen--he-her-_1_09-04-2024_111029:

session was so good. And I just loved getting to actually chat with Kat and Alex after interacting with them virtually for so long, I guess we're still virtual, but this is kind of as close to like in person interaction as we can have. But the conversation flowed so well between all of us and we only really got like two questions that we wrote down asked, and we had a bunch of like little sub questions and tangents that we went off to, so it was just a really great flow. I think my favorite part of the conversation was when we chatted about authenticity, staying true to yourself, alignment to your business, and basically how that alignment has led to more success, which is definitely a recurring theme on our show. And I just love how both Kat and Alex are event calligraphers and they show us how different our businesses can look. So like Alex is full time in her calligraphy business. While Kat has what she describes as two full time jobs, she has a corporate job while she's also running her calligraphy business.

alane_1_09-04-2024_131029:

Yeah, I feel like we could have just kept chatting for hours.

shaochen--he-her-_1_09-04-2024_111029:

Yeah.

alane_1_09-04-2024_131029:

Like the conversation was just so fun. It was so fun to hear their different perspectives and how they've kind of carved their own niches within the live event space. But same as you, I really admire how both of them have created those like unique paths for themselves and they're really focusing on what they're doing. Works for them, not what works for other people. And I feel like that's such a good reminder for anybody in any industry. I also really loved our conversation around pricing. I feel like it got a little bit spicy, but in the best way.

shaochen--he-her-_1_09-04-2024_111029:

We asked the questions that we really want to ask other calligraphers. So we did not hold back.

alane_1_09-04-2024_131029:

yeah, and they were just so open and honest with us, which I really, really appreciate. And hopefully like. Those conversations happen more and more. Cause I feel like they're so important for just, you know, keeping our industry standards and helping other people who are just starting out one, feel less alone, but also help them feel empowered to make the decisions that are right for them.

shaochen--he-her-_1_09-04-2024_111029:

Well, whether we like it or not, holiday season is coming up right around the corner and that's probably the busiest time for live events. So our goal with today's episode is to equip you with some key live event tips around marketing and pricing and also some prep so that you can either book your first live event or get some timely reminders as we head into this event season.

alane_1_09-04-2024_131029:

Let's do a quick intro of Kat and Alex before we dive into the episode. That way you can learn a little bit more about them. Alex Hirsch is the calligrapher behind signs of our lives and Kat Brown is Kat Lauren calligraphy, and they are both live event calligraphers, bringing a fresh perspective to guest favors and client gifting after starting in the wedding industry, they expanded their services to provide live calligraphy at corporate events and activations for brands like Prada, maker's mark, LA magazine, Netflix, and more.

shaochen--he-her-_1_09-04-2024_111029:

Alex and Kat specialize in providing personalized Insta worthy guest experiences by customizing favors on site, using their artistry to hand engrave hot foil or paint while entertaining and engaging guests. And they also host the keeping up with calligraphers podcast, as we mentioned, where they share their knowledge and insights to educate event artists and industry professionals with the overall goal of elevating guest experience. Let's go to their interview.

shaochen_1_08-13-2024_095818:

Welcome Kat and Alex. We are so excited to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for waking up early to join us and find a time that works for all of us. I feel like we've known each other for years and even though we've Met in person. I kind of feel like we have, but it's nice to have this like almost in person interaction here on our like video podcast. we've even gotten to work together. If you guys remember back in 2021 with like a luxury brand that I was helping to hire calligraphers for. So I just love that we're continuing to collaborate in different ways, even though we're not even in the same state. I feel like the calligraphy community is so strong in that way. So we've already shared your intro with our listeners. I'd love to have you guys tell us a little bit about yourselves in your own words. So

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_1_08-13-2024_085818:

Yeah, well, thanks

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Absolutely. So thank you so much for having us. I know we've been chatting about doing a collab episode for a while now, so I'm so excited it's finally happening. And yeah, so I guess a little bit about me. I am a professional calligrapher. I like to say calligraphy artist cause, We do calligraphy on basically multiple different surfaces over here. And I've been doing this for about seven years. And I've been full time in my business for three years. I live in San Diego, California. I co host a podcast with Kat, keeping up with the calligraphers, which I think you've already mentioned.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

Awesome. And what about you, Kat?

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Hi everybody. I'm also super excited to be here. So as you mentioned, I'm Kat. I am a full time behavior analyst, also a full time business owner. I don't like saying it's a side hustle or I don't like saying part time in my biz because it's That just doesn't feel like it has enough respect for the time that I put into it. So full time in both trying to balance that and also being a twin mom and doing all of these other things. So my days are very jam packed, but I've been in my business for six years. Pivoted like so many times. I feel like I'm currently in the middle of a pivot, but I'm really excited to be here. I'm talking about live events cause that's definitely my bread and butter lately.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

Yeah, we're super excited to have you guys and to share your wealth of knowledge. So Chen and I are definitely more like wedding calligraphy based. So it's really exciting to be able to bring some voices onto the podcast to share more about live events and live calligraphy. I love that you said calligraphy artists. Alex, I feel like that does sum it up very, very well. So to just jump right into the conversation, Looking back at all of the live experience that you both have what is like the top marketing advice that you would give to yourself when you were just starting out and trying to book your first live event? If you each have like one to two marketing tips that you could share to kind of help our listeners get started in that industry, that would be awesome.

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

I think my advice would be before you're even like trying to put like Yourself out there, I think, is really taking the time to understand What it is that you do and kind of clarifying your message about it because if you're not kind of confident in being able to talk about it Then that does show in your words that you're putting out to people. So whether that's on your website site, your Instagram, an email page, even if you're at a networking event and talking to people. If you don't kind of have a clear idea of what it is that you do and the value that you bring when you're sharing that to people, it can come off just a little bit disjointed and it's, it's kind of hard to be confident if you don't have that really kind of clarified. So yeah. I think really just taking the time to understand like what it is that you do, how you do it, kind of like your process around it and what value that you are bringing to that audience that you're trying to market to will put you in a much better spot to be able to then talk about it and get people excited about it.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

I want to double like tap into that a little bit because I mean, I've been following you for a long time, as I mentioned, Kat, and I feel like when I first started to follow you, your brand was like pink and soft and dainty and delicate. And then all of a sudden you like had your kids and then you had this like shift. I don't know if having the kids had anything to do with it, but I felt like then your brand identity completely shifted to being like this. Dark, vixen, glamorous, celebrity calligrapher. And like, I feel like in that moment, your brand became so clear, right? and you totally stood out in that very unique way. Could you just tell us a little bit about like, am I right? Sorry, this is like my outsider perception of your brand, but I have like so much respect for that kind of like, transformation that you went through and how you. Did that for your business so quickly and also like just so much was so much clarity. Like you just said,

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

It wasn't, I think it just happened around the kids because I was like, I need to get my rebrand like out before they get here because I'm not going to have time after. But. Felt like I was at the beginning like where we all start you're trying to do different things You're trying to find your niche like I was still kind of doing wedding stuff and like So much respect to you guys because honestly like it's just like not a good fit for me and especially like with my kids like just trying to balance the back end stuff with my actual Like career and then that so that just like wasn't working out, but I was just like doing what I thought My clients wanted which is like that soft that romantic like the stuff that I was wanting to create kind of fit with that And I was like, I literally don't even like pink like i'm not a blazer girly Like this is really dumb. Like I like i'm attracting projects that I don't like I need to just like switch it and then just like be me and so I think that also helped shift everything. Cause I was like, this is just like me now. If you guys don't like it, whatever I'm into it, it's going to find the people that it needs to find. So the shift was quicker and easier, I think, because it was stepping into like my authenticity and not this like weird shadow of like what I thought I wanted to be. So it's been really nice just like have everything match me.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

that's so powerful. I feel like you could absolutely feel it when you shifted into that. And I love that, that you kind of talk about how you realize that what you felt, what was what you were doing before, didn't feel like you and now it's all aligned and you can really like see that and feel that through your brand.

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

That makes me feel so good. Thank you.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

And I feel like that also adds to like what you were saying earlier about being confident behind what it is that you're offering. Like if you can a hundred percent stand behind your brand, your messaging, like what you're putting out into the world, I feel like that, I feel like that probably is also what just helps you grow and flourish in your business because you're showing up with so much more confidence than maybe you were before as like this brand that you didn't feel fully aligned with. Right. So maybe even you are a little like. I don't know how I want to go about pitching myself, or I don't know if I feel really comfortable pitching myself to these clients or whatever the case may be, but when you can like fully stand in your power, I feel like that just changes the game. I

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

get the imposter syndrome, but it's less about what I'm trying to put out there and the value. Like that's not the case anymore. Now it's just like, all right, like, can I step into this space and be like, I can do that. Like, what am I doing? I'm fine.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

Yeah. And then the piece about, sorry, there's just like so many gems in there. I feel like I want to highlight for the listeners is like, you are now attracting the people that you want to work with, that you want to be around. It's just a good lesson that like, don't try to cater to what other people want because when they come, that's not necessarily aligned with what you want anyway. So just like be who you are and you'll attract more of the work that you want to do. Right.

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

and I think even when the ones that aren't maybe fully aligned come and ask to work with me, I feel confident being like, hey, that's not in my wheelhouse. If you're really wanting to work together, like everything is figureoutable, I'm happy to do it. But I even just feel confident Like That's not the best fit for me, but if you want to move forward, like I'll do it. I'll figure it out, but I'm going to put my own spin on it. You're not coming to me. Like, here's the mood board. This is exactly how I want. Be like, that's not how I work, but thank you so much. I can do this. And if you would like that, let me know and I'll send you my contract.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

Alex, let's, let's shift to what your tips are for our listeners.

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so proud that got like made that shift and it's I agree. It was so awesome to see her come into her power. And I think we all love that, like just as women too, of like, stepping into your power. I don't know why I can't move forward without saying that. my main source of advice is just like putting yourself out there and Connect with local people. So if you're in a big city or a small city or just a neighborhood, like there's people you can connect with that want exactly what you want. You're doing. Going back to like marketing, like putting yourself out there to like, if you're really into tennis, like go to your local tennis club and say, Hey, I'd really love to like customize water bottles. Like, do you think everyone could come with like their Yeti and I'll engrave it for them? Something like that, where you're kind of figuring out like something that's like of your interest as well as. that you're already kind of doing people that you're already connected with and using your resources to Really like then work on your skills, right. And to get into those like events and work on, all of the, the new things that the new learning experiences that come with being, an event calligrapher. That's much less pressure, I think, to put on yourself then like, you know, having a big luxury brand be the first person you reach out to at the first event you do, right. So, That's something that I recommend is kind of like start small, start with the community you already have or start building one. And especially like the interest that you have as well.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

love that, because I also feel like it's less intimidating when you're starting with something, like you said, something small, but also when you're starting with something that you already love, too. Like, if I love to read, like going into my local bookstore feels way less intimidating. Um, And I think it's also always about having fun to that's something that like I'm trying to come back to in my business, just like doing things that feel fun. And so thinking through like what actually feels fun to do right now to just help me get my feet wet in this industry or, you know, kind of finding whatever my niche is going to be within it. I think that's really great advice.

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Oh my gosh, absolutely. That's something we talk about on our podcast is like, Is event calligraphy even like fun for you? Like, if you're not a person who likes talking to people, you know, maybe it's not for you, but I think like, you know, if you do really enjoy engaging with people and engaging in your community, even if it's a small one, like, I think it's so awesome to, to, again, yeah, like exactly what you said. Tap into the joy, tap into the fun. Like we are, we are entrepreneurs. Like we are creative entrepreneurs. We don't need to be. Doing like the hustle grind bullshit, you know, we can tap into the joy of life, and incorporate that into our businesses. Right. So such great advice.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

Yes. Amen. I'm here for that.

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

I was going to say, I think too, like, I don't know, I feel like smaller events or like things that you're interested in don't necessarily ever get the spotlight, like everybody wants to share their work with Dior. Everybody wants to share their work with like Joe Malone, but. I am equally as pumped to work, like, a CrossFit Christmas party where every single person there is so excited about the ornaments that I'm doing. I just did, like, a 90th birthday party where they were just, like, doing favors and stuff like that. And, like, the gratitude and joy, like, the interactions that you get there, like, Shouldn't be overlooked, honestly. Like, it's not just about being like a luxury calligrapher, right? Like, I mean, if that's your vibe, like, I guess, but like, Don't put yourself in that box of thinking that's the only thing that's successful. Like there's so many fun events out there. And if you think like retail is the only way that you can do it, like you're missing out on half the fun.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

I love that. You're kind of expanding the way that we're thinking about live events because I'll be honest as someone who doesn't do them a ton. I still mostly think about them as luxury corporate retail. So I'm actually curious, just like, how did you, for example, book a 90th birthday party? Like, how do we start to drive awareness? Like when we're talking about marketing, right? How do we start to drive awareness of live calligraphy as something that individuals want and not just necessarily retail or corporations or luxury?

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

For me, I think that goes back to my messaging and like understanding again, like the value, like. The value isn't in like just the transaction, right? Like, I think that's where retail brands have taken advantage of it. But like, you're looking for people that value that experience, like that interaction, you know, that authenticity. So again, I think if you're able to harness, if that is the value that you feel like you bring, you know, or whatever else, but I feel like when you get clear on your messaging, like. When you're talking to other people, then you can say like, well, I can bring this to your party or I can bring this to your retirement, you know, whatever it is. Like it makes it so much easier to be adaptable and flexible because again, you're not talking about my paper to pen skills. You're talking about your interpersonal value that you're bringing to people. Like that's the luxury. It's not like the. 200, like, dollar bottle that you're engraving, you know? I

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

Yeah. I think that that was a really good segue to because I think it's really interesting kind of going back to what you were saying before about it's not just retail events like you both have very clearly carved out niches within niches for yourselves, which I find so interesting. So can you share a little bit about how you both have kind of like. Gone down even further like you're yes, you're live event artists live event calligraphers But within that you've even found your own unique positions within that market So I just love to hear a little bit about how you both kind of found your footing in like these different areas Yeah,

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

for me, I actually, signage. That was the first thing. I forgot to kind of mention that in my intro is I used to do wedding signage. Hence my name signs of our lives. And then, you know, I found that that was really stressful for me over time. And it wasn't something that brought me joy. And I was like, what the hell am I doing? And I did start doing retail events. They also didn't really bring me that much joy. So. For anyone who is starting out, retail events are really great when you're starting out to like, start with those. At the same time, those aren't the only events. Like I think, you know, we're kind of doubling down on that today. Like those aren't the only things you can do if you want to be, adding events to your services as a calligrapher or a lettering artist. So for me, I started working with some like, spirit brands. And then I found out like, like at liquor stores and stuff like that, and those are really fun. And then I started getting invited to like whiskey festivals and stuff like that. And then I kind of realized for me, I thrive off of like being at those sort of like fun events. And I also like connect with like the bar industry in my community. San Diego has like a really, tight knit and like so welcoming, spirit, like industry group. And so for me, like that was kind of something that I figured out and was like, Oh, like I can reach out to more people that are like this. And that kind of helped me, I guess what, kind of do what you were saying of like niche, niche into another niche.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

okay, but wait, I mean, this might be a tangent, but you also are a live event artist in a different way in that you also do like flash tattoos, right?

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

yes.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

Can we talk about that niche? Whereas this is a live events episode,

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Oh my gosh. Wait, okay. So, yeah, I, I don't know about, Um, other engravers, but I know for me, I literally every single event I've ever worked, I've been asked, Oh, do you also do tattoos? Because you're working with an engraving machine. It sounds kind of like a tattoo machine.

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

think you have a lot of visible

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

I do also have a lot of visible tattoos, and I'm wearing all black. And then. Also just having a steady hand, you know, people are so impressed by that to see a live artist, like doing their thing. And it just show up exactly how the artist wants it to write. Like that's something most people can't do. So yeah, eventually I was like, you know what? I'm going to see if I can learn how to tattoo. Cause enough people asked and like, I'm kind of interested in it. I, uh, the guy who did my tattoos, I asked him if he would mentor me. He'd been doing tattoos for like 10 years. He'd owned a shop in Nicaragua, so he was pretty familiar with like teaching and managing and stuff like that. And he was just super talented with fine line, tattoos. And then. Decided to take me on, as his apprentice, which was so amazing. And I would have never been able to do that. Had I not been like full time in my business and had also like all these six degrees connections, right. To meet him. And so, yeah, then he was like, let's do some flash events. Like, that's it. a really good way to, like, A, get your name out there as like a new tattoo artist. And then B, just to like really practice your skills. Cause they're a lot smaller, like a small tattoo is a lot easier to do than a big tattoo. So yeah, then I started doing that and that was super awesome. I got hired for like my first flash tattoo event, with a brand, last fall. I haven't really been promoting that, honestly, cause I was so busy with Signs of our lives doing, like engraving and painting and foiling and stuff, for brands. But I'm really hoping that more, brands are like wanting to bring that VIP experience, to like special events. Cause I, it's so cool, right. To walk away from an event, like, Hey, I just got this tattoo. and

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

niche, too. Like, that fits with, like, the audience that's going to these, like, whiskey festivals, and, like, it just, like, fully aligns with you. I love that.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

I love how everything is tying in together today it's like Being true to yourself, being what feels authentic to you, following the things that bring you joy, that light you up. If something isn't lighting you up, it's like, okay, what am I going to do next? Connecting with people in your community. Like it's such a good full circle conversation already. So I love that.

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

I feel like we always hear people talking about that, like get to the things that bring you joy, but I feel like there's not a lot of talking about, like, you do have to do the work to figure out what does and doesn't bring you joy. And that is that building piece in your business that a lot of people, I think want to skip over and like, truly, you just can't do that. Like you can't fast forward through that. Like it's shitty to be in that spot when you feel not aligned or whatever else, but truly like. That's how you clarify your message. That's how you know what you get super, you know fired up and passionate about so I just think we a lot of not us specifically but like Leaders in our industries and stuff like that a lot of people talk about like getting to that happy spot, but they really don't talk about like you just you cannot Like fast forward through that like we're all like Multiple years into our businesses now, like you're seeing year six for me. Like no one saw years one through four, because I was still building, like trying to figure things out, like trying to find my voice, trying to find all of that, like. That's how that works. And you can't fast forward through that. Like it's very rare for someone to just like come up and then all of a sudden just be like big and doing all the things like you got to put in that work to find what all of that is.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

We're all seeing everybody's year, like five plus for the most part, right? Um,

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

I was going to add to that too. I kind of mentioned it when I was chatting. But I think outreach is something too that some people are afraid of. I think Kat kind of talked about kind of getting your, your messaging honed in on. And then once you do have that, you know, whether you're going to networking events, or you're just like cold emailing people or calling up, DMing people on Instagram or cold calling if anyone calls anyone anymore. Then I think those are really good ways to like, once you do find some things that you're interested in, part of doing the work is actually reaching out to people and it could be, you know, one person replies out of 50. But that's one person and that's exciting and that gets your foot in the door. So

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

yeah, because also doing that outreach work is also what's going to help you continue to hone in and refine your messaging. Like you have to test the waters with these things. You can't just be like, Oh yeah, everything's done. And now I'm going to go be a booked out calligrapher. Like you're going to get turned down. Things might not hit for different people. So like you have to experiment and, you know, actually put all of these things to the test too, as you're going. So I love that. Reminder.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

All right. I think that was a great discussion about marketing. So let's talk a little bit about sales, specifically pricing. So like Elaine and I, we talk about pricing, calligraphy services, like wedding work you know, calligraphy products. We always talk about how like pricing is personal. You need to start with your own financial goals, use that to determine your hourly rate. And then like, Calculate other costs. You might have kind of go from there to build your pricing. The thing that I sometimes struggle with with like live events is that it feels like the market rate or like what's happening in the industry seems to factor in a lot more than just taking in your personal financial goals. And so I guess our question is like, how do you go about finding what the market rate is for live events? Because it's not something that's necessarily, no one's like posting a spreadsheet of rates for you to check, right? So, as a new calligrapher, how do we even know where that like line in the sand is as far as what the market's charging?

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Yeah I mean, I think that's a problem. I think pricing transparency is a problem for everybody I don't this is a personal stance again Like you said pricing is very personal, but like I just don't think it serves anybody. To not have that transparency So actually alex and I both have our pricing on our website for me it functions as I have all these other things that i'm doing and I don't want people in my inbox like I'm sure you're lovely people but like if I can If we can weed each other out by me just having my pricing on my website then i'm not wasting your time Like i'm not going back and forth on a bunch of emails just to find out it's not going to be a good fit Or it's not going to work for your budget so i'm hoping that I am seeing more people do that or people talk about that I'm, not like going through and looking at people's websites, but I am hearing that be more of a discussion You so I would start with looking at specifically people in your area, because I think where you're located definitely will also dictate kind of what the range of pricing is in that area. So, I would start with looking at other calligraphers in your area, start with just looking at their websites. We're not blind copying people's pricing, but I think that'll help kind of get a sense for what that is. Don't look on Etsy would be my other piece because that's just like not like even if you're like I'm gonna look up what this angry thought, you know, whatever like just don't like that's very different than looking up live events I know Nibteak, if people are familiar with that too, it's like like a directory, I guess of different calligraphers. So you can also go on there. Not everybody has their pricing on there, but you can search, I think, by different locations. And some people do have their pricing on there as well. So even if it's not on their website, there's a pretty good amount of calligraphers on there. So you can start with looking at prices on there too.

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Again, it goes back to that community piece for me is like, if you can build community with some other artists in your area, And if you're the only artist, I'm, I'm sorry, you can reach out to us. We're here for you. But if you're, if you're solo, it's going to be really hard. Like it's a lot easier when you can find at least one other person who's doing something similar to what you do that you can kind of chat with and be like, Hey, what are you charging for this? Right? Like, obviously. That's not the first thing you do when you meet this person. Like you kind of want to build relationships with people first. And then kind of start having those conversations. One of the most important things I've done, like as a business owner, even is just connecting with other business owners, other artists. And having people I can talk to about these sort of things, because not everyone is going to be transparent online and not everyone's going to post their stuff online, on their website or on Instagram or whatever. So I think, you know, the more you can have these like in person or even virtual, connections with people, I think the better off you'll be. And so, and. Terms of like finding, you know, you know, where are you with this? I want to make sure that like, we're aligned, like we're providing kind of like a similar experience. And then just to add onto that and going on another tangent here, that, you know, pricing a lot of times, it's very different obviously than if you're, pricing for products. But there's. You know, different things that you're providing as an artist. So the communication with the client, the process behind everything, the guest experience, the actual artistry, right. That you're providing, there's lots and lots of factors that determine how your price is going to end up, as well as like your location and the demand and those sorts of things. Kat and I are in Southern California. That's going to be. A way different market than, you know, Chicago or I don't know, somewhere in the Midwest. Maybe

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

middle of

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

of America. We're not great at geography. Um, Where, you know, you know, it might not be as high demand, right? So pricing might be different.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

Yeah, no, that's real. I'm glad that you brought that up because that's something that we talk about too. When pricing wedding calligraphy services, like I say this all the time, whether it's on the podcast or like with my mentees, it's. You're not just providing a welcome sign. You're not just providing a seating chart. Like there's all of these other factors that you're bringing to the table. And it's the exact same thing with live event calligraphy. Like you're not just showing up and doing the writing. There's all of these other things that go into it. So I'm glad that you brought that up as a reminder for people to kind of factor that into whatever they're setting as their hourly rate, or if they're doing, you know, a flat fee or something like that when they're pricing their work Just to kind of follow up to this. So say somebody does, they go and do their local market research. They're asking some people, getting some gut checks on, you know, starting pricing. How do you yet then, like, do you have any tips for using that market rate to then determine what you should personally charge for your services? Like how does your experience Maybe play into pricing or something like that, or some of those other factors that you were even talking about. Cause I know like we all want to be very conscious about not, you know, undercutting our market, but we also don't want to overcharge if maybe like we are just starting out and our experience isn't, you know, we're, we are in year one, not year seven. And we're chatting with you about pricing, like, what are your tips there?

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

So I think there's a couple things here. So one, I do think we need to define undercutting. Because I think that's a huge thing in any market, right? Like, whether you're an artist or you're a realtor, right? Like, people are undercutting everywhere. And I think that's something that's more intentional. Something where you're like, Oh, like I know this person charges a hundred dollars an hour, so I'm going to charge 50 an hour. Right. So that I get the job. I think that's something that's more done with intent as opposed to when you're just starting out, you're kind of still figuring things out. And I think that's okay. I think it's kind of giving yourself room to grow. Like everyone starts out somewhere. And you can start like. Increasing once you kind of start figuring more things out and you work with more brands and you're like, oh like They're willing to pay this rate and it makes more sense. And I feel like I'm providing a better experience. So that's kind of my take on that is that, you know, if you're not doing anything intentionally, right. It's okay. I think we, we all need to give ourselves great ourselves grace. Cause I think we all start somewhere in this industry.

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

yeah, I think, so you had already talked about like, and highlighted talent is only like one piece of it. I do think talent is kind of two parts. One, it is like, if you were doing calligraphy, for example, or you know, whatever it is, you could be a watercolor portrait artist, you could be doing painting, you know, bottle painting, whatever else, like, whatever, like, Obviously, we want you to have the skill set but also the confidence behind that skill set to do it quickly. And with people watching I think the other things that go into it in terms of experience is your knowledge of your craft to troubleshoot on site. So you show up and all of a sudden, this bottle is maybe not the same as the 1 that you were testing at home. How are you going to pivot that? Okay. Like, you forgot to charge your engraver that died. Now, what do you do? Do you have a backup engraver? Are you switching to paint pen? How are you Clearly communicating that with your client to maintain those expectations You thought there was only going to be 50 people you show up. It's actually 150 people. How are you? you know, Supporting your client in terms of like maintaining guest experience Expectations, how are you doing crowd management? Right? So talent is one piece of it and I think That's where you'll hear a lot of people say like, there are other skills that you need to have or at least be ready for and that's where we make that recommendation of like starting smaller because a lot of times like you. You can't really create that in a false sense to know how you're going to navigate it. Like, you really sometimes can only do trial by fire with that. And if you're not comfortable with that, then maybe live events aren't a good fit. And that's okay. Right? Or maybe something like that just like, gets you excited. Right? And you're like, oh, like, I feel like I could figure it out. Then maybe it is a good fit. So I think it's those, you know, It's like management skills. It's your own interpersonal skills. Like, especially if you're doing retail, like, I'm not necessarily there to sell, but like, I want to attract people. Like, I definitely want to bring that value. Right. And if it's a live event, like, The whole point of me being there is to, like, enhance their guest experience and if I'm just kind of sitting there like a bump on a log, like, waiting for people to come up to me, like, I'm not really, like, enhancing their experience in any way. So how are you interjecting that energy into what you're doing? I think those are the things that when someone's new that you're still kind of honing those skills in. And as you start feeling more comfortable, confident with those things, I think that's where your pricing kind of grows from there. But I think that's also not to say that, like. You can't start out with like a great experience, right? And that you can't maybe start a little bit higher off the jump if you know you already have that. Maybe you did something before that that skill transfers over. I did luxury wedding catering as a job when I was in college, so I already kind of like had that. interaction in place. So that was actually a place I was really comfortable, but I didn't feel like my skills were aligned yet. So I actually started a little bit lower. So I think there's a couple different things to consider. And as you gain experience with your skill set, you're adding different, maybe services, supports, things like that. That's where you can kind of incrementally start to grow. But I think going back to, to what Alex was saying about undercutting is, I think There's a difference between maybe charging lower than what others are charging just based on what Is a fit for you and your skill set versus like, I think of undercutting as like, you're intentionally lowering your prices to beat somebody out for something. So, whether that is you got an email and, you know, the vendor was like, Hey, you know, like, just as an FYI, like, we're collecting quotes from a couple different people. And your response back is well. I can do it for 25 an hour cheaper than the other person, or if, you know, just from someone in your community, you know, maybe you saw them post about it, or, someone's reaching out to a couple different people and you're like, I'm making the choice right now to price lower than what I would normally charge to try to book this, like That's not serving anybody that's not serving you The value you think you're going to get out of that of booking that job regardless of who the client is Even if it's like some big celebrity event, all you're attracting is one just like bad karma. Please don't do that but also now that person's just going to keep coming back to you seeing that you are not firm in your pricing And a lot of times you're going to get pressure from that person To either do more for the same price or to continually accept a lower rate so It really just doesn't serve anybody when you're intentionally undercutting people But I do want to highlight like that is not the same as someone new that is maybe Pricing a little bit lower than what you would recommend as someone that is already experienced And they're trying to figure that out for themselves. Like that is not the same So I do feel like highlighting that is important.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

You're so right. I think that there is a difference between undercutting or even, you know, purposefully undercharging versus just saying, you know, okay, well, if cat, I'm just throwing out random numbers, but if cat charges 200 for onsite and I'm just getting started. So I feel like one 75 maybe feels a little more aligned for me right now, because I don't have all of these other things that you're talking about. Like you said, there's a huge difference between that. Um, right, right, exactly. Yeah. And I think it's just. I think that a lot of people, I don't know, I could be speaking out of turn, but I think that there is like sometimes fear around, like, I don't want to devalue our industry because there's so much talk around that. And I think it's just highlighting what the differences are and letting people still feel empowered to charge what they feel comfortable and confident charging versus the pressure of like, you're going to lower our industry standards and we're all going to come after

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

Yeah.

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

I think again, like please don't charge like 50 an hour. Like that's just not valuing your time. Like even if you're brand new, you don't have those skills. Like what you're offering is still worth like a certain amount of money. And I'm not, I don't want to put out a number because one, I'm pretty sure that's illegal, but also too, it totally depends on where you're located and everything else. So there is definitely like, A floor that I definitely recommend just as a value don't want to go under but like there's different clients for different people like I don't know I don't always understand when people are like you can't charge less than this because then Everyone's going to expect it for less than that Well, if someone's willing to accept less than that like that wasn't your client anyway So I don't know why you're so upset about it Like they weren't going to book you anyway, so let them book that

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

yes. Yes. Thank you for saying that I feel so aligned right now because Elaine and I This exact same is actually a bullet point in our notes that there's like someone for everyone at different price points and okay, sorry, not to make this a little more spicy than it is is I think part of the reason we wanted to bring up this conversation is I have had conversations with calligraphers. Who feel pressured to charge a certain amount because people are like, you need to at least charge this amount on the, otherwise you're undervaluing our industry. And it's not like 50, by the way, it's like something that feels totally

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

It's like 200.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

Feels totally reasonable. And it's for somebody who's like first gig, for example. And I just feel like one, if we go back to the pricing is personal, like pricing is personal, knowing that of course, there's also like some level of don't undervalue the market. We have to balance those things together. Right. And I just really don't like when people are pressuring each other to be like, you can't charge this amount. Well, but. Like that person needs to make that pricing decision for themselves. And so what I'm hearing you say is like, research is important. Research the market rates, talk to the people in your community. I love the idea of going on an uptake and seeing what's available publicly to see people's prices. Understand what that range is. in your local area so that you kind of know where you can work within for pricing and then within that range, come up with something that feels comfortable for you. Right. I feel like if I were to summarize the advice, that's kind of what we're saying, but like, I just really would love to get away from this idea of calligraphers telling other calligraphers what they should be charging. Cause I've personally felt that way sometimes from people. And I'm like, guys, it's my business. Like, sorry, I can decide if I want to be there for four hours. Like if my minimum is three hours on site or six hours on site, you know? So.

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

I don't have a minimum. I don't like, no, we talk about all the time. I don't have an hourly minimum. And if I did, I would miss out on a whole lot of really fun events because I was like, it's not three hours. I'm going to push it. Like I've done events for like an hour and a half and I'm like, that was amazing. And now I get to go home, you know, but I just, if you are pricing with integrity, it will be okay. Because I do think that if you were just pricing because somebody told you to price that high one, I think that you are going to have that imposter syndrome. I think that is almost the fastest thing to trigger it. Honestly, it's like, I'm charging this person now. I don't feel confident if I can deliver. That is a horrible spot to be in. And I don't want that for you, right? Like that's going to suck the fun right out of it. If you're having a panic attack, every time someone walks up to you at this event, right? Like I don't love that for you, but if you are Honestly trying to Do pricing in a way that feels aligned with you You have that integrity of i'm making this decision for me. I've done some market research. So it's not fully, you know, like uninformed I guess like you're not just like picking a number out of nowhere like definitely do a little research but Do it with integrity price with integrity, right? Like what you feel good about your offering I think that is where we should all be at And then I do think there is a conversation about gently coaching people up To understand the different factors to push forward and not be complacent with their skillset, whether that is, you know, like your artistry or your interactions, whatever else. Like that's a place where you as a business owner should be hopefully seeking that mentorship or, you know, reaching out to other people within your community to continue to build those skillsets, but yeah, just run your business with integrity and I think you're going to be in a pretty good spot.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

So now that we've got our pricing figured out one other thing that we didn't cover yet but I feel like it is important to talk about is The necessity of having a contract, I think even if it is your very first event.

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Oh my god.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

So I was gonna say, Alex, do you want to just like jump in there?

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

The way I'm like so embarrassed because I don't even want to give a time amount to this, but I was without a contract for way too long. And even when I did start having a contract, That's a whole other episode. But even when I did, it was like PDF. Can you please sign this in doc hub or whatever? And I like did not have a CRM. So, all about the client experience now. And yeah, I think having a contract is so important. I think like every, it just makes me feel so much better knowing that like. If there is someone who like pays late, I actually just had that recently. Like, someone owed a shit ton of late fees. Because they paid like so, so, so late. And I was able to enforce that, right? Like, it sucked for me to have to do all that extra admin. But, yeah. But it made me feel better about like, okay, like this is late. And like, you guys have to figure this out, like how to pay more now. As well as then just like, if you work overtime, like the time allotted, you know, you're agreeing to three hours, but then you worked three and a half, like you should get paid for that extra half hour. So the amount of times like having a contract has like saved my ass. Like, and just makes me feel so much better about it because it's like, Hey, per our contract, this is, this is whatever, you need to communicate about. Yeah. And it also just makes me feel professional as well.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

I feel like people are like, Oh, a contract like that's so scary. You're like, no, I don't want to hold my clients to X, Y, or Z, but it's like, it's not about that. Number one, it does. Yeah. Well, it makes you look and feel so much more professional, which I think also just does wonders and like helping the growth of your business because how you think about yourself and your business is exactly like that informs how you present yourself. So if you are presenting yourself as like, Even if you're just getting started, or it's a side hustle, or it's a hobby, and you have a contract, like, you're gonna feel a hundred times better. But yeah, even just to have the peace of mind to know, like, even, again, even for weddings, like, no, in your contract, I was supposed to have your guest list due, you know, two weeks before your wedding, and now it's going to be late, and I need to charge a rush fee, or whatever the case may be, like, It just helps you come with such a clear head. So Kat, I know that you have worked with the legal page for creating a contract specifically for live events, right? Like this is live events, specific contract. Can you share a little bit about that with us?

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Yeah. Honestly, it is wild if you are out there working live events without a contract, and I say that with so, so, so much respect and love. Honestly, like, if you're out there without a clear expectation of like, If you accidentally mess something up, who's responsible for that product, especially if you're doing retail, like, are they going to deduct that out of your pay or can they just expense that out? Like, you know, if you are at an event and again, like, someone interacts with you in a very, like, uncomfortable way, like, who's going to be responsible for that? Are you. You know, like, please just get up and leave if that's the case. Right. If you don't feel safe or whatever else, but like, do you have a contract in place that covers that? Like who was providing the product? I didn't know to clarify those things one before I was established, like wild that I was just like walking in engraving these like 400 fragrances and I had no clue. Like, thankfully that was not a problem I ever ran into. Right. But like, I do feel like there is a very big liability that. We either kind of willfully are ignorant about or just like truly as we're trying to figure it out We haven't come into that realization yet and that's very wild to me that like so many of us myself included like We're running around without a contract I bet you two thousand percent in top of an nda that you're gonna have to sign a contract With a lot of these big retailers with any you know of these Like large event producers things like that because they're not about to take that liability so You got to come to the table and protect yourself and advocate for yourself. And so I was very worried For our industry with that. And so I reached out to the label page and I was like, hey I really feel like this is a huge gap. I would love to serve my community in this way, but like clearly i'm not a lawyer but I would love to tell you what I think should be included for that because I feel like all of us were making these like frankenstein contracts too of like I bought this calligraphy thing But it doesn't really fit that so i'm just kind of kind of like add this in but I don't know if that's right like We just, like, can't be doing that. Like, I'm

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

time you have like,

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

anybody, but, like, again, it goes back to the confidence of, like, if shit goes sideways, like, I know exactly what I need to do. The expectation is clear for your clients, and there is clarity on who's responsible for what and what we need to do to move forward. So. That is why I reached out to Paige. She put together a contract for that. So that is now available. And it is not just for calligraphers. If you guys have people that are doing other type of, like, the title of itself says live calligraphy, because that is my zone of expertise. But it is an editable template. I don't know if that's a word, but it can be edited. It's an editable template. So if you need to switch out for live watercolor portraits, for bottle painting, for like illustrations, whatever it is that you do, it can be easily switched out. So don't be deterred by The title if that is the case. We also noticed that a lot of calligraphers were subcontracting each other So we also put together a clause If you are hiring other calligraphers underneath you or to go out to live events on behalf of you so shao chen when you were doing you know when you were contracting all of us to work for that big brand like You That would be the perfect clause for that. So you're sending it to a client saying I might be sending someone that is not me. However, I'm going to be, you know, coordinating or whoever's going to be coordinating that expectation is clear. So we also put that together just preemptively seeing the need as you know, the industry is growing. So that is available now. And we will put a link in the show notes.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

Thank you for taking initiative on behalf of the calligraphy community To help us have that legally reviewed contract because it wasn't something that ever existed before And I went out and bought those right away when you posted about them So we'll definitely share the links in the show notes and we'll also share other ways to get in touch with you. Can you guys just tell us really? You Quickly, how our listeners can connect with you. Listen to your show.

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

So our podcast is keeping up with the calligraphers, and you can find that on, I mean, we have an Instagram page. That's like the easiest way you go to Instagram and then you click, Instagram. Into there for all the podcast links, but it's on Apple. It's on Spotify. Anywhere where you can listen to podcasts basically. And then obviously like our personal or our business Instagrams, I'm signs of our lives. And that's, Honestly, where I spend the most time, chatting with people and DMS, um and then cat,

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

And you can find me at Kat Lauren Calligraphy. It is Kat with a C. And if you are looking for our podcast Instagram, it is Keeping Up With The Caligs. But if you can't find it, it's in our bios.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

Do we get an update on when your next episode's coming?

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

such a great question. Um, So we're, we're kind of the, the opposite of you guys where we're, um, not as scheduled,

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Lucy

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

we're a little, when we, when we find time, we figure it out. We're on a little bit of a summer break right now, but we're hoping to get back probably by the time this is released, honestly. So. In the fall, we'll be back for season two with more good juicy info for being, an event artist.

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Trying to be open, transparent, honest. Like we didn't intend necessarily to take a summer break. Like we kind of did because I was going to Kenya and a bunch of other things, but like just trying to also show like, it's okay. If you have to put things on the back burner to prioritize other things in your business. So that's what we're doing. Cause things keep popping up and personal things happen and business things have been happening. So. We've definitely intended to be back a lot sooner, but we will be back as soon as our schedule allows us to be like fully prepared for our audience because we're also not in the business of just putting things out there just to be put out there. So trying to respect our own boundaries while still showing up for everybody.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

Yeah, we hear that. That's exactly why we did our summer break. We were like, sometimes you just gotta put pause so you can focus on some other

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

We love

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

Well, thank you for

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Yes.

shaochen_2_08-13-2024_101229:

us. We really appreciate it and taking the time out to speak with us today. That was such a fun session.

alex-hirsch--signs-of-our-lives--she-they-_2_08-13-2024_091229:

Yeah. Thank you. This was awesome. I really, I hope we get to chat again. And we really love to be gone.

alane_2_08-13-2024_121229:

Yeah, we might need to do a

cat_2_08-13-2024_091229:

us know if there's a part two.

People on this episode

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Alane Gianetti

Host
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Shaochen Wu

Host