30. Pricing Common Scenarios for Calligraphers & Stationers: A Live Coaching Call

Let’s talk pricing. If you’ve ever stared at an inquiry thinking, “What the heck do I charge for this?”, you’re not alone. We were invited to share our expertise for a live coaching call hosted by Elisabeth Stuckey, stationery designer and creative business coach, for the students of her course, Dream to Design.

From how to factor your experience into your rates to whether you should be charging for design time (spoiler alert: YES), we’re spilling the ink on all things pricing—especially for calligraphers and stationers. And because this conversation was so juicy, Elisabeth graciously let us share this exclusive replay right here on the pod!

We’re walking you through the nitty gritty: how to set your hourly rate, when to raise your prices, and why you’re doing yourself (and your clients!) a disservice if you’re copying someone else’s pricing. This isn’t just about numbers—it’s about confidence, sustainability, and building a business that supports the life you want.

What you’ll learn in this episode:

• Key factors to consider when pricing calligraphy services (it’s more than just materials!)
• When it’s time to start charging for your work—even if you’re new
• How to price spot calligraphy for stationery projects with confidence
• What to keep in mind when quoting large custom or wedding projects
• Creative, scalable ways to grow your calligraphy business without burning out
• How your calligraphy style influences your pricing
• Real talk on what to charge for envelope addressing (and why undercharging hurts you)
• Pricing tools, templates, and mindset shifts that actually work for creative entrepreneurs

If you’ve ever Googled “how to price calligraphy work” or “how to raise rates without scaring off clients,” this episode is your go-to guide. Grab your favorite pen, a fresh notebook, and let’s get you pricing with confidence and clarity!

🔗 Links to resources mentioned in this episode:

• Download our free Tech Programs Guide
• Purchase the Creative’s Pricing Toolkit
• Listen to Episode 11 where we talk about advanced pricing strategies
• Learn more about Elisabeth Stuckey Design

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to the Pricing Coaching Call!
• 1:20 Introducing Expert Speakers Alane & Shaochen
• 8:23 Factors that Impact Your Pricing and Basic Pricing Formula
• 16:28 When to Start Charging for Calligraphy Services
• 22:52 How to Price Spot Calligraphy for Stationery
• 28:26 Considerations for Pricing Larger Projects and Installations
• 36:25 Creative Ways to Scale a Calligraphy Business
• 44:36 How Your Calligraphy Style Impacts Pricing
• 48:12 Pricing Envelope Calligraphy Services
• 52:06 Pricing Resources for Calligraphers & Stationers

Transcript

alane_3_03-20-2025_162234: 0:32

welcome back to Calligraphy Biz Corner. I'm Elaine.

shaochen_3_03-20-2025_142233: 0:35

And I am XO Chen, and today we're doing things a little bit differently. So back in late March, we were invited to host a coaching call with Elizabeth of Elizabeth Stuckey Design who is a stationary designer and creative business coach. This live q and a call was exclusively for students inside her stationary course, dream to Design, and Elizabeth graciously agreed to let us share this conversation with you, our podcast listeners too.

alane_3_03-20-2025_162234: 0:59

There were so many great questions submitted by her students from what should be considered when pricing your work to how to price spot calligraphy to how to scale a calligraphy business. Because handmade work takes so much time. So this was such an insightful conversation and we are so excited to bring it to you.

1:20

Hello, welcome. Happy Thursday. Probably the most common question that I get related to anything business is about pricing. And so I'm so excited to have Shacha and Elaine here with us today to talk about pricing and specifically through the angle of calligraphy and their calligraphy businesses. So this is gonna be so good. Let me go ahead and screen share and pull up our slides and I'm gonna give a little intro for each of our guests today and then we will go ahead and get started answering your questions. We got lots of really great questions for them and they have some other resources that they're gonna share with us today as well. Alright, so first things first, we're gonna just introduce Chen and Elaine. And so they are calligraphers and they have come together from their two separate calligraphy businesses to start a podcast, I wanted to go ahead and just hand the mic over to them to introduce themselves to you, share a little bit about each of their calligraphy businesses, and then also their journey to to starting their together. Elaine, do you wanna go first? So I started calligraphy back in 2013. I received a beginner's calligraphy kit for Christmas.'cause that was, I feel like that was really the time when I started to see like modern calligraphy and pretty writing everywhere. And I was like. I'm looking for something creative to do outside of my nine to five. And this seems like something that I can tackle in a very small apartment space. So got that kit and really just started practicing as a hobby. I taught myself, I signed up for some Skillshare classes and watched a ton of YouTube videos and started following calligraphers on Instagram and it really stayed a hobby until about, I think it was 2015 when one of my good friends from my corporate job was getting married and she said, oh, I'm getting married. I would love for you to address my wedding envelopes. And I was like, oh, this is something that people need and are willing to pay for. Cool. Who would've thought? So I did that as my very first job. I was terrified, but I made it through and she was very happy, which thank God. So then from there, I really just started to put my name out there. I started to tell friends and family that I was offering this. I took some in-person workshops, connected with some local businesses in Hoboken and really just grew a steady stream of side work while I was still working nine to five in the city. And then until it got to a point where I kind of felt like. Oh gosh. Like I feel like there's really something here with this calligraphy thing and there's enough that enough demand that I feel like I could take this full time. So in June of 2018, I left my corporate job, decided to go full-time in my business and have been doing this ever since. So now I have the pleasure of working with the most incredible couples on their custom wedding signage and stationary, really bringing in their unique story and creating unforgettable celebrations for their guests. And then now I have also started coaching other calligraphers and building a business that really supports their life by honing in on their messaging, elevating their client experience, and implementing seamless systems. And Chen and I connected when I kind of started dreaming up more of this education side back in 2020 when weddings stopped. And it was like. What do we do? So I had held a pricing webinar, which is very fitting that this is what we're talking about today. And XO Chen and I connected there. And then how about I toss it over to you if you wanna take it from there? Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, like the rest of that story is that I reached out to Elaine and was like, Hey, do you wanna be friends? Basically, I was like, this girl seems cool, let's hang out. And we just like connected over Zoom and realized that like we get along really well. We work together really well. So one of our pricing resources, the Creative Pricing Toolkit actually was born out of that relationship, like early on. And then since then, we started our podcast Calligraphy Biz Corner was it January of last year? So our podcast has been around for a little bit over here. I don't know where does time go? But a little bit about me. So I'm XO Chen. I have always been someone who loves to pick up, like collect creative hobbies. For a while I was into like glass frameworking, and I did like macrame. I've taken like terrarium workshops, like all kinds of stuff. In 2018, I stumbled upon calligraphy. I took like a brush lettering workshop and I ended up leaving my job in early 2019 because of just the toxic work environment. I kind of left abruptly and that was the moment where I was like. You know, I was so burned out, I'd always wanted to start my own small business and I was like, is the universe just giving me a sign that I should go for it? But it was like kind of crazy'cause I'd only had four months of calligraphy experience, like really just like two calligraphy workshops under my mouth. So it was like total, total newbie at calligraphy. When I think back I'm like, that was kind of insane that I was like, maybe I could just turn this thing that I took two workshops on into a whole business. But I like enjoyed it so much that I was like, I think I'm gonna just give this a shot. And so I kind of like budgeted out a six month runway and was like, let's just see how this goes for six months. And if I am getting momentum and en enjoying it, then I'll make another decision. Do I continue with this business? Do I go get another job? So that's kind of how I got started. I. And here we are five years later. I'm based in Denver, Colorado. I primarily from the calligraphy side of my business, focus on like wedding signage and details. I don't really do print stationary and Elizabeth is obviously the expert in that. And I also do live event calligraphy, so typically working for like retail brands, corporate brands. And then I also, like Elaine, got into business mentoring during the pandemic in 2020. And I have an entire website dedicated to business education for calligraphers. It's called calligraphy ceo.com. I have a couple courses that pricing toolkit Elaine and I created. I have one-on-one mentoring. And then I obviously host the Calligraphy Biz Corner podcast. So it's become a really big part of my business and I just absolutely love helping calligraphers start their businesses or primarily like grow their businesses when they're in the early stage. So, I have like my signature courses, pro wedding calligrapher, where I help calligraphers do that. So, so good. I love hearing more about both of your stories and how you came together to start your podcast. And how does each of your different areas of expertise probably compliment the way that you coach and mentor and serve other calligraphers? So, I'm super excited and I know that there are lots of students in this course who either are early in their calligraphy journey and aren't really sure, you know, have lots of questions or aren't really sure if they can, you know, really grow it into a sustainable revenue stream or others who maybe aren't. Exploring calligraphy right now, but are thinking about it for the future or thinking about trying to build relationships with calligraphers for their stationary business. So I know this is gonna be a really fruitful conversation and lots of golden nuggets to to share with everyone. So thank you both for being here. We're gonna go ahead and jump into the questions that were sent in from students so this is a great question to start with, I think just in terms of kind of the elephant in the room. So what are the key factors that we should be considering when it comes to pricing calligraphy services? So this is a great question to start with, like you said, and we're just gonna kind of give a disclaimer for the entire conversation of pricing is going to be personal. So what we're aiming to do with our, you know, info and tips, et cetera that we're sharing today is really just give you the strategy so that you feel really armed going forward, figuring out like what will your specific numbers look like. But some of the key factors to consider when it does come to figuring out your pricing and pricing calligraphy services is going to be your experience level. You know, somebody who is maybe one or two years in is going to charge a lot different than somebody who is eight to 10 years in. So you wanna take into account your experience. You also wanna take into account your own financial goals. So that is really where pricing does get personal.'cause everybody's financial goals is going to look different, you know. Also taking into account the market that you're in. So like, kind of, for example I'm based right outside of New York City, so my pricing is probably gonna look a lot different than somebody who might be based in either like a more suburban, rural area, not outside of one of the major cities and one of the most expensive cities. So you wanna look at those things as well. And then we really strongly encourage you because of all of this, to not just use somebody else's pricing to start to determine your own. Of course. Like you could do some market research and kind of get a feel for what others are charging in your area, but you really wanna make sure that you are taking in into account your own personal needs, your situation, your own experience, your own demand, your skillset, all of those things as well. So, I mean, with all of that in mind, we're gonna share a very, very simple kind of basic pricing framework or formula that you can use as a starting point. There's obviously more nuance to this, and this is kind of like for pricing individual products, not your entire package. And I can talk a little bit more about that later. But when you're pricing an individual product, the first thing before you do anything else is figure out what you want your hourly rate to be. And like Elaine said, like your hourly rate should really be tied to what your financial goals are for your business. So you really need to start from a big picture standpoint of like figuring out how much revenue do I be wanna be making each month, and then what are some ways that I can get there with different streams of income. And then once you kind of have that big picture plan, then you can take, you, calculate your hourly rate, and then use that hourly rate multiplied by the amount of time it takes you to create something and then add in the cost of materials. That's like a super, super basic simplified formula for how you can price like an individual product. Of course, on top of that, when you're thinking about actually pricing the entire, like, package for something you wanna add in things like design fees, like I'm, I'm sure that you guys talk about that in the course. And other, any other kind of things that might account for like overhead time or rush fees and things like that. But that really, really basic formula can help you figure out your initial pricing for, for products. And then of course when you're doing some market research too, to kind of validate your individual product pricing, make sure that you are not. Benchmarking off something like Etsy, like look at other kind of like comparable businesses in the market that you're in. And also in kind of like the clientele space that you're in, right? Because depending on who your client is, your market rates are probably gonna be a little bit different there. I use the market rate piece as like the very last step when I'm thinking about pricing. I think this is one of the mistakes that we often see is people go straight to looking at what other people charge. But because pricing is so personal, you wanna figure out those like hourly, hourly rate type factors for yourself before you go and kind of do that gut check against the market. Yeah, it's also a lot easier to like stand behind your pricing and be able to explain it to somebody, if anybody ever is questioning it, when you are able to back it up with like your own personal needs, wants, the value that you're providing to your clients, all of that. So, we talk about all of this more in our pricing toolkit and XO Chen's formula is actually included as like one of the worksheets that's in our pricing toolkit. But there's also this idea of value-based pricing. So in addition to factoring in your experience, your time, cost and materials, et cetera, you can also start to think about, especially as you grow a little bit more in your calligraphy business of like what is the value that you are creating and giving to the client as well as like the experience and the service that you are providing them. When it comes to calligraphy, somebody's coming to you because they can't do it themselves. So there is a factor in there of like being able to provide this solution. And a lot of the times it's something that is very emotionally charged, like if it's wedding stationary or wedding signage, like this is going to somebody's most important day in their life. And so that is also something to take into consideration. I love all of that. Such good. And, and honestly, it's so, it's so nice to just like, hear all of those different things that you all are considering with calligraphy pricing and how it compliments well with cuff stationary and the way that we're thinking about all, all kinds of different factors. And yes, in the course I talk about pricing and it is bottom line. It's a very personal it's a very personal thing and, and the formulas are definitely helpful. But I think everyone here is kind of getting into that a little bit now as we're working through the course and thinking about, okay, what are the. What are the factors that are going to affect, or, you know, be the biggest drivers in my specific pricing based on my experience level and where I live and the service that I'm providing, how unique it is, how much I can differentiate my skillset and my business and all of that. So, I love this. So good. And I think, you know, the, the feedback or the tip of avoiding just looking and copying someone else's pricing is so important because it's so tempting to do that. But I love what you said about having confidence in being able to defend and explain your pricing. And that is going to only come when you develop your pricing based on you know, what's important to you and what your, your background and your level of experiences. So. Yeah, great. Always like, so there's basically two kind of like calculator spreadsheets in that toolkit. And I always talk about how like when you price off math rather than emotion, it's so much more powerful. That's where your confidence comes from because when you're p pricing off emotion or just how something feels, it's so easy to discount your pricing the moment you feel insecure. Mm-hmm. Or someone might raise a question about it, you go straight to discounting yourself, right? Mm-hmm. And even if somebody doesn't say something about it, you are questioning it and discounting yourself. Mm-hmm. Before you even should be or have to. Yeah. So when you have the numbers and the math to back it up, that really, really gives you that confidence to stand. Yeah. And one thing I always remind my students is that you know, both calligraphy, custom stationary, they are luxuries, they're not like human essentials. And so we don't need to feel this guilt around charging what feels like a higher price point. It is very much a luxury. Offer, it's a luxury service to have for your wedding or for whatever event. And you know, at the end of the day, we are all good people, but we are not running charities. We are running businesses. And so profitability is so important and I love that way of disconnecting the emotion behind it.'cause it's definitely an emotional process. Like, I can still remember back in my early days, just the emotion behind sending, like hitting send on that email with the proposal and just feeling this anxiety and this nervousness of, am I worth this pricing? Or what are they gonna think? Or how much does this lead want to spend on their invitations, rather than how much do I want to charge? So really trying to flip that and think of being it, thinking of it as a business decision and yeah, a, a math equation rather than an emotionally charged moment. So I love that. Okay, so this next question, if I am brand new, my calligraphy isn't great, how do I know what I can actually charge for these services? So I know we touched on this a little bit with just thinking about levels of experience. What do you kind of see as that on-ramp to starting as a calligrapher and kind of going from practicing and maybe doing free projects for family and friends to actually charging for your services? Yeah. So how do I know when I can actually start charging? Okay. So yeah, I mean this similar to the pricing question, this is also like personal. There's no right answer. There's no not, I'm not gonna be like, yeah, practice for three months, six months, and then you can start charging. I mean, I was talking about how I started my business. I started selling my calligraphy when I was like four months into learning calligraphy. So I mean, I think this really, like a lot of this stems from your mindset. Kind of remembering that like the bar for what is good enough is like completely subjective. And it, I think it's really easy for us to like keep going down the path of feeling like something isn't good enough. And this can go on for years and years and years, even if you've been honing your practice for a really, really long time. I see Calli out there who have just incredible craft and still don't feel like they're ready to sell. Right? So I think one thing in terms of the mindset to remember is like we are often looking at our other artists, other calligraphers, other people in our space. We are kind of surrounded by this art, but the people, our clients that are looking for our work and purchasing our work and looking for our services, they're not in that same mind space as we are. Like you are likely the only calligrapher they know or maybe the only stationer that they know, right? And so just remember that like you're solving a problem that your client can't solve for themselves. Use that as kind of your. Your guidance rather than, is my calligraphy good enough? Is my calligraphy better than the person who needs the calligraphy? Like, is is this going to solve a problem for the client, you know, that they can't solve for themselves? That's kind of a way to maybe like reframe the way that you're thinking about it and figuring out when you should start selling your work. I mean, of course, like you wanna also have like some level of confidence in your skills and your work, but this is where it's kind of subjective, right? Just don't let yourself go down that rabbit hole of never thinking it's good enough or waiting until it's perfect. Because the truth is like we're all going to continue improving as we continue in our journey. Like your calligraphy three years, five years down the road is probably gonna look better than it is today, right? Like if you keep working at it. I think all of us, Elena and I were talking about this yesterday when we were kind of like looking through these questions is like we look at our first jobs and we're like. Wow. Someone, someone paid for that, like kind of a little bit in disbelief, you know? Mm-hmm. But that's, that's how everybody starts. Like you gotta start somewhere. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was just gonna say, like, when I look back at that very first envelope job that my friend asked me to do, I didn't do any capital letters because I was scared of doing those in calligraphy. And I didn't even do the actual address in calligraphy. I was only writing the guest addresses in calligraphy and printed the actual like, address por portion of it. And I look back and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so terrible. But like, she saw something in my work, she couldn't do it herself, and she was willing to pay me for it, which is also like crazy. But the thing is like going back, kind of echoing everything that Chen said, like, you're never gonna know until you just try. So just start sharing your work and letting friends and family know that you're practicing, you're doing this. And kind of use that as a way to even just like start to get feedback from people on. How your progress is or if they like what you're doing or assess demand for it, see if there's need for it in your area. And then I also think that there is power in just like starting to charge if somebody is asking you to do something, I mean, first of all, it is going to take up your time, so your time is worth something, even if you don't feel like your skills are up to par yet. But I also think that there is such value and power in actually practicing, like charging for this mm-hmm. Before maybe you even feel super confident already. And like it's a little bit easier to do it maybe when it's a friend or a family member versus a stranger on the street. So, both of us are very much just advocates of like getting out there and going for it because that's just mm-hmm. That's how you figure it out. Yes, I love this. And I just want to loop in a thread, a conversation that was in our community that I was just reading before we got on this call. And it was someone asking about you know, should I wait until I have everything built and then launch, or should I launch and tweak and perfect over time? And I loved reading through the comments. There were like 15 comments on this post and everyone was encouraging this person to go ahead and launch it and figure it out as you go. And I love that perspective because I think a lot of us get kind of into this caught up in perfectionism and thinking like, again, comparing our business or our. Business into someone who is very experienced and has like a full branded website and all of these things that maybe we don't have yet. And sometimes that imposter syndrome keeps people from ever getting to the point where they launch it and try it and test it out. And so, you know, from my perspective, it's better to go ahead and get it started. And even if it's not perfect that first time you tweak it and you improve it and you grow it over time. It's so much easier to tweak something that already exists than to build something from scratch. So you are making progress, even if you are going to go back and revisit and revise things. And of course, my perspective here is from the angle of like, you know, getting a logo and building a website and some of those initial steps. But I think the same is true about our actual skillset, that it's okay to start and to to get practice you know, marketing and processing payments and, you know, all of those little steps of the process that are new. But if some, you know, again, if you are in a place where you are starting to get interest in your work, then there's no reason to to decline that business, to, to wait until you feel it's perfect. So, I hope that all of this is encouraging for those of you who are new and whether you are polygraphers or even Stationers, this is such a good message. All right, so let's talk about spot calligraphy. I did not ignore that question in the chat, but I knew we were gonna talk about this. So how do I price spot calligraphy? If you wouldn't mind first defining spot calligraphy for us, just for anyone in the group who may not be aware of what spot calligraphy is. And then talk a little bit about pricing for it. Yeah, so spot calligraphy is when you do, like, it'll be like, you can do names and then it's gonna go into a wedding invitation. So you're gonna do the calligraphy of like your cou of the couple's names, and then you can hand off that digitized calligraphy file to the stationary designer if they're not the same person. And then they can input it into that design. Same thing like if you wanted menu in calligraphy, but the stationary designer doesn't do calligraphy. They can hire a calligrapher to write menu, digitize it, and then put it into their design. Was that a good description or do you have to go? Yeah. Okay. No, that's perfect. And I'll just add, like, I know a lot of you, maybe when you're. Kind of out in the world and you're seeing invitation or in the wild, you might see something that you think is a font and try to find it. And if you can't find it, it's probably an example of spot calligraphy. So a calligrapher wrote it, digitized it, gave it to the stationer, and that's what the names are how they were produced rather than using a font. So it's an alternative to a font if you want more of that elevated custom look. So perfect. Exactly. So, the first part of this question,'cause we kind of read this as two parts of like, how do I price spot calligraphy for my own stationary clients? So it sounds like if you did calligraphy for your own clients or for another stationer, so I'm gonna start with if you are doing calligraphy on your own designs for your own stationary clients, I would just recommend rolling that right into your design fee or including it as part of your package. So, I'm guessing, have you talked like a little bit through design fees and things like that? Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay. That's what I figured. So, yeah, so I would just make sure that you are including that, like I said, as the part of your design fee, or you could put it as part of your overall design package of like, you know, calligraphy for couples names or headings on day of details or something like that is included in this package. Mm-hmm. So since I'm a calligrapher and I don't do stationary when I'm providing spot calligraphy to another stationary partner or friend generally I've done this in the past and here's the way that I've done this based on like my research of how people price spot calligraphy, but I don't know that this is like this. I'm sure this is not the only way to do it. And I also don't know if this is like the most common or anything, but I'll just share one way that I did it. I priced the two full names for the invitations as like one flat price, and then I did kind of like a price per word or short phrase. And so if the stationer needed like kindly reply, RSVP, like, menu, like Elena was saying, like other little phrases here and there that go out throughout the invitation then I would price those kind of a la carte, like a separate price for those individual phrases so they could decide like what they needed and how many. As you're figuring out the pricing for those pieces, make sure you're accounting for going back to that kind of accounting for how long it takes you, so your time for obviously designing the lettering, which like you might do a couple different versions for the client to pick from. Or you might just be iterating on the lettering for a while yourself. Like, I always feel like designing names is so fun, but it's also like such a privilege to do. And there's some like level of responsibility to make it look really gorgeous. So I always kind of go through some multiple iterations. So your time for like designing the lettering, actually like writing, providing the digital files that you might need to convert in a different format, and then any like, rounds of review that you might include to the client. And so when I'm actually thinking about. Putting a price to these. What I personally did, just as a reverence point, was I did around like$200 for two full names and then like$25 for the additional words and phrases. But like I said, pricing's personal base, those prices off your own hourly rate and how long it would, how long you think that it would take you to go through that like process of the writing and digitizing and everything. Yeah, and one other factor that we just wanted to point out here too, if you are offering spot calligraphy, or even if you're doing like custom illustrations or something like that, is to. Make sure you're having a conversation with the client, whether it's the stationer or the actual client, of like, is this gonna be a single use or multi-use? Because sometimes, like if you're writing the couple's names, for example, if you're doing spot calligraphy for their names and they wanna use it on their invitations, but then they also wanna use it on ceremony programs or menus or a welcome sign or a seating chart, like thinking through these various uses and just making sure that, you know, you have it outlined on your contract of like where they can actually be using this, how many times they can be using it, things like that.'cause then that can also affect your pricing as well. Yes, absolutely. I think spot calligraphy, just from the angle of those of you who are exploring your stationary design signature style and really just figuring out design, it's such a great way to elevate your suite and to make them feel ultra custom. So maybe especially for those of you who I know we kind of have a wide range of experience levels in this, in this group. And so we have some who are brand new and then others who are established and kind of looking for those little ways to elevate their business and grow into a slightly more luxury market. And I think exploring spot calligraphy and partnering with a calligrapher if you are not a calligrapher yourself is a really great way to do that. So, we've definitely been doing more spot calligraphy over the last couple of years than we had early on. Awesome. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about pricing calligraphy for larger projects like seating charts, installations more of these high stakes projects that also might require travel. Yeah. I'll just kind of go through some considerations that might be different than your typical, like, you know, smaller signage pieces that you might be doing for a day of that you wanna consider when you're doing bigger installs. So I kind of have a list. So obviously for, if you're doing like a large wall or something like that, you're probably gonna have like higher material costs. You're gonna have higher production costs. You might even be subcontracting out part of your fabrication because maybe you don't have laser and you need to, you know, you need that functionality. So you need to purchase some laser cutting from someone else, you obviously will have transportation costs, whether that's like you delivering the piece yourself or hiring somebody else to deliver it for you. Also think about what you're using to transport the piece. Like will your car actually fit what you're trying to deliver? Because a lot of times you need to rent a delivery vehicle or a truck. Your labor, so pricing for your labor, any assistance your time for being onsite, setting up your time for travel in addition to all the stuff you've already done in studio, in addition to all the design and all the stuff you've already done in studio. And then don't forget about striking, which is typically, you know, that happens after the wedding. So most of the time our clients are not going to want to keep these large installations. They're gonna want you to kind of figure out what happens with it after the wedding. And that will mean that you're either staying around the area so that you can strike. So that's also more time or you're like coming back later. Another thing that I don't think people think a lot about is storage. So now that you have the piece, you picked it up, where are you gonna put that? Right? A lot of times the people that I know who do large installs have some kind of warehouse, a garage, some kind of storage space, and then they can, I mean, the great thing is that you can probably use some of these pieces over and over again or repurpose them in different ways. But you may have to like rent some space out or figure out what you're gonna do with that piece afterwards. Is it something you could reuse or sell to someone else, et cetera. The last thing I'm gonna talk about is something that like, I think is so, so important, but often like we forget about is the risk that you're taking on of building these large installations. So make sure you have business insurance that covers you appropriately for what you're doing and that you have in your contract that you, there's a way to limit your liability, God forbid something were to happen with that install. Like if part of it were to break, if part of it were to fall if a guest were to tamper with it and cause it to break, right? There's so many different scenarios you wanna make sure you're covered. So this is both kind of a price and consideration from the insurance standpoint, but also just like what level of risk are you comfortable with and also just from a design standpoint, do you have the experience to like know what is gonna be structurally sound when you're designing these large installs? We actually have a episode of Calligraphy Biz Corner with the Creative law shop. We interviewed Paige, who's the founder and the lawyer behind that business. She creates contract templates for creative businesses. And she used to be a calligrapher herself, which is super interesting. And so she has thought about all these scenarios and had some of them happen to her. So if you're interested, I That's a great episode to listen to. Even just hearing you talk through all those things, I'm sure everyone watching this is like instantly increasing the price of whatever they would do for this type of project. Like instantly I'm like, it's not worth it for whatever you first thought of as a price point. So I'm excited to hear what Elaine has to say as well. Yeah, because I was gonna say, in addition to all of these logistical pieces that you need to think through and take into consideration, there's also going back to what I had said in the beginning with question number one of, of what are some of the key factors when, you know, figuring out your pricing, there's also this huge added value aspect that needs to be factored into this pricing as well. Because yes, sure, you're delivering this gorgeous, beautiful, you know, seating chart for your clients, but you are giving them so much convenience. You're taking away all the stress, like you're gonna be there doing the pickup, the drop off, the transportation, the building, et cetera. So like you are giving them such a huge weight off of their shoulders in order for them to. Then the second piece of it is to create this like, show stopping experience for their guests that like, they're not gonna get any anywhere else. So as you are thinking through all of those things and you're pricing it and you know, you're, if somebody is inquiring about it and you're talking through everything that's included, like I think it's really important as well to be just sharing that like, you know, I'm going to be handling all of this for you so you don't have to worry about a single thing. And like your pricing, it's probably going to be, like you said, Elizabeth, really high mm-hmm. For something like this. But if they wanna make sure that they have this beautiful, gorgeous statement, seating chart that they don't have to worry about picking up, dropping off, assembling, falling on their guests, whatever the case may be. Mm-hmm. Like that is something that you have to pay for. And kind of going back to what you had said earlier too, where it's like, this is not a necessity, this is a luxury service, and so it needs to be priced accordingly, especially to, for all of the reasons, like the logistical reasons that Chao Chen outlined. Yeah. And what I think. A lot of us can just remember is that people are willing to pay for it. Like I think we sometimes discount ourselves before we even, you know, get to the point of realizing that so many people are willing to spend money on these types of luxuries. And a lot of the clients that I work with who are spending lots of money on their invitations, convenience is so important. So like, I love highlighting that and just that, you know, they don't have to lift a finger. It's handled by a professional who knows what they're doing. There's so, so much value in that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just as kind of like a price point too. In Denver over here, I know that like the vendors who do this last time I checked, which was a while ago, so it might be higher, like their minimums were like$5,000 or more for doing these types of things. So, and obviously that's going to, that's a starting rate, depending on what they're doing, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Calligraphers who. Participate in this type of project. Obviously there's kind of you, you, some would do the option where a rental company is providing the actual structure and maybe the calligrapher is just partnering to actually write on, you know, do the calligraphy element of it. Which would be more of just like a identifying time and travel and, you know, maybe a little bit of like responsibility and high stakes aspect of like, once this structure is built and you show up, like you, once you start writing, you can't erase. And so there's a little bit of like high pressure involved that should elevate your pricing a little bit more than maybe just like envelope calligraphy where you can just toss an envelope and get a new one if you mess up. But I would assume that that would probably be another consideration here if you're, you know, you can offer calligraphy for something like this without necessarily offering the actual. Structure that's being written on. If you're interested in being a part of these types of pieces for a wedding day, but you're not interested in all of the logistical aspects of it. Yeah. That's definitely my personal approach these days. Mm-hmm. I just partner with like other rental companies, fabrication companies, like let the experts specialize in what they do best and then I'll kind of mm-hmm. Collaborate with them. So I, yeah, I personally love that approach. Yeah. Even direct, if you do have a client that's like coming to you and interested in this, there's somebody that I work closely with, it's a floral designer, but she has like large scale walls for rent. So I've worked with her now a number of times, which has been just so nice too because if she has a client who's interested in calligraphy and doing something with her walls, then she's recommending them to me so that I can provide the calligraphy piece of it, but don't need the headache of doing the whole wall building myself. Yes. Okay. Awesome. Alright, so I love this question and I, I'm sure there's a lot that we can unpack here. And this may be our last question because I know we had some that were kind of folded into some of the other things that we talk about. So we'll click through them and see if there's anything that you wanna add. But I think this one will be really great. So, how do you scale a calligraphy business when it requires so much time? This is a great question and definitely something that I think XO Chen and I have both struggled with over the years, especially when you first start out, because it really just does feel like you're constantly trading your time for money. And I really experienced that like right after COVID when, you know, everybody was getting married again in 2021 and weddings had been postponed and moved and changed and it was just pure chaos. And that was the year that I realized like my pricing is not covering my time at all because I am working around the clock and I barely have anything in my bank account to show for it. So one of the things that I did was I, number one, got like really honest with myself about like, what is this service that I'm providing? And it was making those mindset shifts of a lot that we've already talked about of like, it is a luxury service. It is not just for anybody off of the street. If they don't have the money to invest, that's okay.'cause there are other people who will invest in it. You are also not your ideal client. So just because I may not be investing the minimums or the prices that I am charging my clients, doesn't mean that there aren't people who pay. Also remembering that like I wouldn't pay for it because I can do it myself. These people can't do it. They're looking for, to me to design their luxury, you know, wedding stationary and signage. So really getting clear on all of that. And then what I did was just honestly revamp my entire systems, workflows and client experience so that I was able to really start to deliver this like premium service in addition to the calligraphy that I was providing. But this like seller customer service throughout the process of working together, which I. Helped me feel way more confident, increasing my pricing and making sure that all of the time that I was spending on projects, not just actually designing the projects, but like so much of your time when you're a calligraphy business is managing clients and creating proposals and invoices and following up and checking details and all of these little things that just were not taken into account in my pricing. So like I said, I just really started to get clear on my client experience, how I was positioning myself, how I was speaking to my ideal clients, and over the years have raised my rates accordingly. So that way I am accounting for all of those kind of non-billable or like unseen hours. And was able to get to the point where, for example, just to give you numbers, like in 2021, I had 93 weddings that year. And had like, just broken six figures with that 93 weddings, which was like, oh my god, amazing. But also like, not because I was working 13 hour days and then through all of this work that I did of, you know, like I said, getting clear on my systems so that it could do some of the admin work for me, elevating my client experience, increasing my pricing. I cut my weddings down to 30 in 2023 and still made the exact same amount of money and actually had time again. And then that's when like Calligraphy Business Corner was born our podcast, that's when I could dip my toes more into calligraphy business coaching because I actually had time to pursue these things now because I wasn't just constantly working around the clock. I totally agree with Elaine. Kind of raising your prices, making sure you account for the, I love how you described it as like the kind of in invisible non-billable hours, behind the scenes. Another approach that I really like and how I've grown my calligraphy business is to diversify your income streams. I'm pretty specialized, so I take wedding, I basically do date of wedding signage and details. Like, I don't typically take other types of custom jobs and things like that, but that allows me to be like really, really focused on my audience and also have a higher minimum specifically for them. But I also have diversified into a couple other profitable income streams. So like I do live calligraphy jobs. Those are jobs where, you know, typically calligraphers are charging anywhere from like$150 an hour to 200 hour, two 50 an hour plus, like I would say like 150 is really pretty, a pretty low starting rate at this point. This is like when you're just getting into live calligraphy, charging 150 an hour, so it's a pretty profitable kind of endeavor, a different type of way. You can make money with calligraphy because there's. Honestly, like pretty minimal preparation compared to when you're creating like invitation or signage. Of course there is still like some client management back and forth, making sure that you're prepared all of that. But like mostly your, like your time on site is what you're. You're making that money from. And then I've also kind of like within those niches that I have tried things, like I've expanded my business by hiring out other people. So I've like had teams of calligraphers working for me to do live calligraphy events. When someone came to me and needed like multiple calligraphers booked for different events, I've also almost been like kind of like an agency for that. When I moved to Denver from California. I still had a lot of clients there and network there, and so because I wanted to still work in the California market, I actually had a calligrapher on my team who did all the production work. And like basically I handed off all the design specs and things to her and she like created the signage and stuff. So I did all the initial work with the client and then she took on the actual production. So I found different ways to basically diversify and grow my income. And then I think the biggest way for me is obviously getting into education. So I mentioned that I have all these different courses and products and our podcasts and things like that, and that's been a big part of my business. And so scaling a calligraphy business can look different for everybody. And I'm just such a big fan of diversifying your income streams into like what you find that, you know, where's your superpower, what are you really good at, what do you really enjoy, and how can you tap into that in different ways? I love that. Yeah, I think it's one of those things that evolves as you, as you grow and you find your passions and you find, you know, with my mastermind group, we're often talking about revenue streams and, you know, scaling. And I often refer to the term year zone of genius. And the way that we talk about zone of genius is the areas where the things that bring you joy and the things that you're really talented overlap. And sometimes you don't discover that until you, until you kind of explore a little bit and try things and, you know, add little revenue streams here or little offers here and there and see what, what sticks with your audience and then also what brings you joy. I've tried so many things in my business that did not work. I. If I hadn't been willing to keep trying things to see if they would work, then I wouldn't have the business that I have today. And so, you know, I look back at my journey with a period of time where I poured into a semi-custom collection and then a period of time where I started doing kids party stationary and I did a Christmas card line and just all kinds of different things that I was like all excited about for that period of time. And they kind of, they kind of just flopped or fizzled away. And that's okay because ultimately trying something new and being willing to explore different revenue streams allows you to find the ones that really do speak to you, your skillset and and what brings you joy. And so I love, just hearing all of the different ways that each of you diversifies your income and the ways that you can bring in different revenue streams as a clo. So, so good. And I think the pricing general, the common denominator of this conversation too on pricing and just realizing that it's, it's good, it is healthy as a business to increase your pricing over time and that is the simplest way to, to make more money and, and work less. So I love it. Alright, so let's just click through these last couple questions and see if there's anything that you wanted to add here. Do you wanna talk a little bit about different styles of calligraphy or is this not really a big impact on pricing? It's kind of just if you have different styles you can let your clients choose. I think we can talk a little bit about this one. Yeah. Okay. I think this is a nuance one. Okay. Yeah. So Xan and I both tend to have one signature style, so I'm gonna start talking with that kind of perspective and then she'll jump into like, if you do want to or do offer multiple. But I think the power in having one signature style is that people can really come to you for that. Like that's kind of what you become known for. And so that obviously can also impact your pricing because. Hopefully that's creating some demand around your work and you're getting booked out, et cetera. And that's kind of what I had found happened for me in my business. I really honed in on like one unique signature style that people really got to know me for. And then that just created more and more demand around my work and I've been able to increase my pricing over the years. And then what I do is basically just slightly tweak my style based on the event. So if it's, you know, a little bit more traditional wedding than, you know, a super, like modern or whimsical wedding, I'm maybe not doing as many like loopy flourishes or something like that. Mm-hmm. More, you know, modern, fun, playful event. Then I will add a little bit more of that in. and I mean, to directly answer this question, like how many different styles of calligraphy do most calligraphers offer? Like, I really don't think there's a role here. Like, like we were saying, we each kind of have one style that we've, we evolve over time. But I also know that there are calligraphers who pride themselves on being able to develop custom styles for clients or have lots of different styles. Or maybe they have a certain set of like three different distinct styles. Like the calligrapher that I was working with in California, that's what she had. She had like three distinct styles that was like, went from like. Pretty modern to much more traditional like I think it was like a copper plate type style. And so, you know, we would let our clients like choose from those when it was time to get into the design phase. But like, I think that you should do what you wanna do, it's your business. Mm-hmm. You should, if you wanna learn all a bunch of different styles, that's obviously gonna give you some value add too for people who are looking for really traditional, really technical styles, because not as many people do that. So maybe you can charge a little bit more for those type of styles. But if you feel like you wanna just hone in and really have one signature style like you do, you, you know, it's, is your business. Make sure you love what you're doing. I feel like that's such a good way to think of it too, of, you know, there's value either way. It's like either you have different options that you can provide and that might speak to different different clientele or you really get good at your signature style. And the fact that it's so signature and unique to you makes it you know, harder to get and makes it more of a commodity. And so I love I love that. And I think, yeah, ultimately whatever decision you make, you can always revisit. So if you start offering a bunch of different styles and you find that everyone wants the same one anyway, then you know, you always have the option as a business owner to phase things out or to change the way that you do things. So sometimes these decisions feel so big when you're new in your business and. As you, you grow, you realize that it's okay to change your mind. It's okay to start one way, and then if you decide later that you want to add another style, you can try it. And if it doesn't work out, you can take it off. And so, so don't, you know, feel like it's a high stakes decision? I think it's it's okay either way. Okay. So I think is there anything you wanna add to this question? I know we talked about pricing, and I'm sure this is something you unpack in your pricing guide. Um, In terms of envelope, calligraphy pricing, we basically use the same kind of. High level formula we were talking about before. Mm-hmm. We don't price per line per word. It just gets so complicated. Yeah. Like, are you gonna count the number of lines or words for every single envelope? That just makes it harder for you and the clients understand your pricing. So we basically use that kind of pricing formula we shared in the beginning to come up with like a price per envelope. And then on top of that you can add your setup fee, your design fee, et cetera. And then like it might make sense for you to add different rates for different types of things. Like if you're using a pointed pen versus a brush pen or if you're centering all the addresses or if you have international addresses or you're mixing a custom ink color. Like these are all factors that would basically increase either your time or your cost or both. And so it makes sense to increase your pricing. But yeah, I think that was the quick and dirty on that one. Yeah. Yeah. And our overall like, piece of advice for envelopes is don't underestimate the time that it's going to take. Mm-hmm. So price accordingly. I mean, I know like in my area now, I mean, I think in general, I don't know this like for sure, but I, what I've seen other people charging, the average seems to sit around seven, maybe even pushing$8. And like I know in the New York City area, it's not uncommon to see upwards of 10 or$12 per envelope. And that's just for guest addressing. That doesn't include return address or inner envelope. So like mm-hmm. It's definitely a, a service to Yeah. For,'cause they take time. Absolutely. We were like doing a little bit of math and I was like, yeah. So if I want my hourly rate to be a hundred dollars and it takes me this long to write the envelope, it's, I'm gonna charge like$15 before it's really worth it for me. Yeah. So anyway just make sure that you're like charging enough to make it worth it for you. Yeah. And one way to do this, and, and this is kind of how we've priced out assembly for our custom invitation clients, is to literally time yourself while you're doing it. And so, you know, set a timer and forget about it, and then start working on a project. And you know, work, don't, don't be mindful of the timer, like work at a natural pace and. Then, you know, you're able to kind of do the math. And if you did 20 envelopes and it took you a certain period of time, kind of do the math and figure out how long it took you per envelope. And then maybe round up a little bit to account for you know, redos and things that, that maybe didn't present themselves during that little segment. That's kind of how we price for assembly. And I like just this idea of simplifying pricing on the client side of things. I see this a lot with stationary where there are so many factors, right? Like double pie, paper you know, larger cards, all the different elements and embellishments and pieces that we can add or subtract or update or change. And, and stationers sometimes get caught up in all of the numbers and presenting them to the client and too many options is too many options. And it creates decision fatigue and it creates confusion. And ultimately you are the expert. And so simplifying your pricing. In a way that just is an easy yes or no for the client, instead of feeling complex or confusing, I think is the best way to just, you know, have the, the projects start off on the right foot and have that clarity. So I love the idea of just having the, you know, not necessarily getting into all of the per line per word details and thinking of it more as you know, a per envelope or a price, a package price for this client based on their needs. All right, so let's talk about some of your resources here. We have some pricing resources and then on the next slide we'll talk through ways that students can connect with you, listen to your or learn about your freebies and some of the other things that you have for them. So first, let's talk about pricing specific resources. Will you all share a little bit about this podcast episode and your toolkit? So, we would love for you to join us at Calligraphy Biz Corner, which is our podcast. And if you want a specific episode to get started on episode 11 is all about advanced pricing strategies. So you could scan that QR code and I'll take you to that episode. We dive more into things like the design fees investment minimums, and we also talk about like, when does it make sense to do free work? So it's really like the bigger picture strategies outside that kind of basic pricing formula that we had, some time to talk about on this session. So I think that episode would be a really good compliment and kind of next step to what we talked about today. And then if you are ready to kind of like get your hands into revamping your own pricing. Now this is definitely more focused for like calligraphy pricing than it is for like printed stationary invitation pricing. You can check out our creatives pricing toolkit. And it contains like three very comprehensive pricing resources. That Elaine and I put together. So Elaine wrote the Creative Guide to Pricing and that basically gives you a lot of overviews on the different like pricing principles, pricing considerations, different scenarios and things like that. And then I put together the two kind of interactive worksheet calculators in there. So there's like a price book template, which is like a pricing calculator that takes. The formula and puts it in like a spreadsheet form to kind of walk you step by step through actually developing your own price book and your own prices. And then the income planning worksheet, which is actually what I recommend starting with which is where you figure out that big picture financial plan for your business. And so it gives you a way to kind of take into account your different streams of income and how many clients you want from each one and kind of how much money you can make. And then kind of having that rough draft plan using that to help you actually come up with that hourly rate, which is so important in our pricing formula. So, all of that is included in the pricing toolkit. You can scan that QR code to learn more about it. And then some other ways to connect with you through your free tech programs guide and on social media. So grab their handles real quick while we're talking here so that you can follow them over there too. Yeah. So we put together our free tech programs guide, just of like the favorite tools, programs, systems, et cetera, that we both use and love in our business and that we literally can't operate our businesses without. So it's just a downloadable guide we've gone through kind of taken the legwork for you of letting you know why we love it, why we use it in our business and I think we note like whether or not it has a free trial or free plan and things like that. So, you can comb through there. It's like everything from, you know, what we use for our social media planning and post creation to like what we're actually using behind the scenes to run our business. And then yeah, if you wanna connect with us on Instagram, our. Podcast, Instagram is at Calligraphy Biz Corner, and then Chens is at Monster Gold. And I am at Write Pretty for me, so you can come connect us with us there. We love chatting in dms and getting to meet who's in our world. So, yay. I love this. This was so great. I just want to thank you both so much for being here with us. This call was just so much, so much gold but just a huge virtual hug and thank you so much for joining us today. We are so grateful and look forward to connecting with you both further.